[4-20-04]

We have received these comments since the posting late yesterday of Witherspoon's statement on the decision by the Committee on Preparation for Ministry of the Presbytery of San Francisco not to validate her candidacy for a call to ministry.

Thanks to all.

Do you have thoughts to add?
Critical ones are fine, too!
Just send a note
and we'll post it here.

More comments, received April 21 and 22, posted 4-22-04

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Virginia Rassieur, a former moderator of the Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area, sent a note to Lisa Larges (who years ago came under care of that presbytery) after reading our report of the recent action of the Committee on Preparation for Ministry in the Presbytery of San Francisco.

She sent us a copy of her note, and she and Ms. Larges have both asked that we share it here.

Lisa,

I was so heartened when you told me of your pending meeting with CPM and possibly Presbytery. This evening I just heard the news via the Witherspooners of the CPM vote. Now I am disheartened because of their action.

You deserve a huge apology from our entire denomination. The Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area made an apology [in a resolution approved in June of 1997].

"Whereas, the PTCA is a judicatory of the PC(USA)and shares responsibility in the decisions and policies of the denomination, and

Whereas, the PC(USA) has through its due process in the presbyteries approved the so-called "Amendment B" to become part of the B of O in the Constitution....

Whereas, in effect, the adoption of Amendment B by the PC(USA) has reinforced institutional prejudice and shaming of, while relegating to a second class status, faithful Christian member of the PC(USA), and also in effect has gravely offended the consciences of Presbyterians who are appalled by any church action that stigmatizes and excludes any other Presbyterian on the basis of personal differences;

Therefore, the PTCA this 10th day of June, 1997, acknowledges its corporate participation in a denominational policy offensive to the gospel of Jesus Christ, namely the adoption of Amendment B, and offers this Statement of Apology to all persons whose Christian faith and relationship with the church, as well as their personal God-given dignity, have been assaulted or in any other way diminished by the inclusion of Amendment B in the Constitution of the PC(USA). To those our Christian sisters and brothers so terribly betrayed by their church we say, "We are truly sorry." Furthermore, with this Statement of Apology the PTCA solemnly pledges to be faithful to Jesus Christ in exhausting all means possible for assuring the just and loving full inclusion of all persons called by God through Jesus Christ to serve and minister in any capacity in the PC(USA).

I, Ernest E. Cutting, Stated Clerk of PTCA hereby certify ..........was approved...on June 10, 1997, at Christ Presbyterian Church, Edina, MN."

Lisa, I continue to uphold you with great hope. I have great respect for your courage to stand in honesty to force the PC(USA) to look at one we have baptized and nurtured and discipled and confirmed, indeed, encouraged and affirmed in seeking to follow God's call upon your life. You force us to look at what we have done to the likes of you. And what is not to like and love, I ask!

So our prayers are with you in hope that this affront to you is really a bad reflection on the rest of us who refuse to see the light just yet. It is difficult to be patient. You have our support in whatever path you feel you must take. I applaud your courage and honesty that has brought you to today. PC(USA) has brought you up, but has not put you out, rather on an agonizingly long hold. How unjust!

Hugs,

Ginni Rassieur

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you for sharing this sorry bit of news - and for your excellent comments on behalf of Witherspoon. We have a gifted church member in seminary (Columbia) right now who happens to be lesbian - We worry about how she will be treated - Episcopalians are the richer for calling Gene Robinson - We must learn to do likewise - These are exceptionally talented people we are losing! Would that we could display similar courage in accepting them!

Janet and Charles Hovis

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Glad to see the Presbytery of San Francisco is honest.

I don't doubt that Lisa Larges is a talented individual. But to be honest to our Book of Order, she is not eligible to be ordained. The Directory for Worship and PJC cases have declared that marriage is between a man and and woman. Lisa declares openly that her "marriage" is with another woman.

I applaud the decision.

In Christ's Service,

Rev. Bruce Jones
Minister of Word and Sacrament
Descendant of John Witherspoon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lisa Larges was not denied ordination because she was honest. She was denied ordination because she is not chaste outside of (heterosexual) marriage. As Presbyterians we have set standards for ordination. If one honestly states she does not meet these requirements, that does not mean she should be ordained due to her honesty!

Sherrie Lavelle

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Friends in Christ...

The beauty of this situation is that the Book of Order which governs our process, actions, and operations has been upheld. The critical issue, to my thinking, is separating the emotional from the factual. PCUSA has been increasingly bombarded with situations that are in conflict with the Book of Order seek circumvention, often by blatant disregard for TBO's provisions.

The alarming concern is that so many who have pledged to uphold the PCUSA standards, confessions, Book of Order can now dismiss those commitments. It seems to me that, having recognized disagreement, those persons should relieve theselves of the "burden" and form a new, more congruent environment in which they can practice.

H. Frederick Nielsen
Clerk
Wallingford Presbyterian Church
Wallingford, Pa.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Doug.....

Thanks for holding the course on the Lisa Larges matter.

She is qualified; she is ready; she should be ordained.

Final/ That's it!

Rod Martin (former president of the Witherspoon Society)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you wonderful friends for your magnificent support for Lisa who is an amazing preacher, prophet and partner on this justice journey, [and] whom we are the most fortunate to work beside as our Regional Partnership Coordinator. We experience every day her outstanding ministry among us. Your speaking out means so so much to us!!!.

Thank you!! With love and affection, Janie [Spahr] and the Tamfs gang

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Comments received on April 21, 2004

We've received more comments on the Witherspoon statement concerning the action of a presbytery committee to deny to Lisa Larges certification to receive a call for ministry.

Click here for earlier comments.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

AMEN, BROTHERS AND SISTERS. THE CHURCH NO LONGER BELIEVES IN LIVING IN OR WITH HONESTY; IS IT ANY WONDER OUR PEWS ARE DECIMATED?

jimearhart@juno.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi, Doug, thanks for the eloquent message about Lisa. It breaks my heart, every time it happens. We are grieving the Holy Spirit.

Suzan Ireland

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We received this note today, April 21, from the Rev. L Rus Howard, one of four people declared as candidates for the position of Stated Clerk of the PC(USA).

To Presbyweb and The Whiterspoon Society,

While I applaud Lisa Larges for her integrity in being honest with the Committee on Preparation for Ministry of San Fancisco, I cannot applaud The Whiterspoon Society's whining that the CPM did what they are committed to doing.

Lisa does not meet the standards required for ordination in the PCUSA. Both she and The Whiterspoon Society know this.

If Lisa and The Whiterspoon Society believe she should be ordained then she ought to seek ordination in a denomination that ordains sexually active gays and lesbians. Furthermore, The Whiterspoon Society should encourage and help her to do so.

By doing this, both Lisa Larges and The Whiterspoon Society can act with integrity and respect the decisions and standards of the PCUSA.

Sincerely,

L Rus Howard

Candidate for Stated Clerk
Click here for more information on Mr. Howard's candidacy.

~~~~~~

Your WebWeaver has sent this response:

Dear Mr. Howard,

On behalf of the Witherspoon Society (it's "Wither...", not "Whiter..."), let me say thanks for your note. I'll post it as soon as I can - probably this afternoon.

Our intent was in no way to "whine" about the CPM of the Presbytery of San Francisco. We tried to make it very clear that our criticism was in no way directed at them, but rather at the pressures created by G-6.0106b and by the litigious climate in our denomination -- both of which are so clearly directed very specifically at gay and lesbian people.

We were not privy to the discussions of the Committee on Preparation for Ministry, but we assume they are people of good will who acted just as you would want them to act: applying the standards currently on the books of our church. Our objection is to those unjust standards, and not to the work of the committee.

We might note, though, that the members of the committee were not in total agreement. Some apparently believe, as do many others in our church, that the restrictions of G-6.0106b do not in fact require total exclusion of glbt persons from ordination.

"Amendment B" clearly has not settled this issue, and we will continue to work for it removal from our Book of Order.

May God's peace be with you - and with our church.

Doug King

~~~~~~

A couple later thoughts from your WebWeaver:

On "fidelity and chastity," Overture 04-01 from the Presbytery of Western New York takes a new approach to the ban on ordination of LGBT people, by affirming "a covenanted relationship between two persons where a lifetime commitment is intended" as satisfying the demands for legitimate relationships as well as "marriage between a man and a woman."

If you're wondering about the name "Witherspoon," it comes from the Rev. Dr. John Witherspoon, a Presbyterian minister and the only clergy person to sign the Declaration of Independence. He also served as the president of Princeton Seminary.

http://www.witherspoonsociety.org/about_us/john_witherspoon.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We welcome comments - either on Mr. Howard's note, our response, or the Witherspoon statement in general.
Just send a note and we'll add it to this growing collection.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EXCELLENT response, Doug! Many, many thanks to Witherspoon for this (not that anyone out there in officialdom is actually listening...)

Gail Ricciuti

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Received on April 20, 2004

My thanks to the executive committee for your strong and prophetic response to the vote against Lisa Larges. This is a sad moment for the Rassieurs, as my wife, Ginni, was the chairperson of the Committee on Preparation for Ministry in the Presbytery of the Twin Cities Area when Lisa was recommended by CPM to the presbytery to be certified ready for a call some years ago.

Thank you for calling for justice now instead of playing the waiting, political game.

Chuck Rassieur

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I couldn't agree more! Thanks for this statement.

Peggy Howland

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 

Congratulations to the Executive Committee for their statement upon Lisa Larges' denial of the right to proceed to ordination. Well done. Well said.

Robb Gwaltney

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Comment on Larges' Ordination Denial by the Presbytery of San Francisco:


Arguably the New Testament can be boiled down to a single commandment. Love thy neighbor as thyself. The Christ came and gave this pronouncement to a humanity that clearly hadn't discerned it from the 10 commandments given to Moses, so God made it "easy" with one. A single commandment from which life should flow - along with an experiential equation of Service and Relationship to realize the Kingdom.

Unfortunately, in the 2000+ years since God sent his Son to "break it down" for us not only did we murder Him but, to pour salt into His wounds, we have continued to turn a blind eye and a deaf ear to His most important pronouncement.

For all of the PC-USA's focus on academia and exegesis, I find it startling and amazing that - even in San Francisco, which is looked on to be a bastion of hope for the future - it continues to fail miserably not only in understanding Pauline pronouncements in context, but also on refocusing itself on that simple and all important commandment - to Love.

We do not deny Christ's humanity up on that cross, nor should we deny the humanity of those called by Him to serve. We should be recognizing the Light amongst ourselves in a hope that it might disperse the darkness in this world - not covering it because it shines a little differently than our own. God is all about the shine, all about the love, all about the light. Jesus didn't take up with those that all shined the same, his disciples, apostles were a cadre of hues, a "multitude" of colors from every walk of life, from every corner of society.

Progressives should not sit idly by at this GA and let the manipulations of polity, status quo, and division take precedence over the Great Commandment. To do so renders us complicit to the chaos of man and rejecting of the Order of God. Those of you who have been called and blessed to be commissioned to GA in 2004, take with you not only your brains and voices - but your hearts. Let your hearts speak the Truth of God's True Word so that this polity of division and persecution shrivels like a weed in the sun. Find your strength not in your legs but in your convictions.

For this many of us will pray.

BJ Jordan
Trinity Presbyterian Church
Palm Coast, FL

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you ...

For your thoughtfulness and your courage in speaking the truth. I don't know what is to become of this church, but it is certainly engaged in sin.

Frank [Vardeman]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

AMEN ...

..to the prayer for the removal of G-6.0106b, the "fidelity and chastity" clause ..

..for the prayer of thanks for the steadfastness of the 5 who voted for honesty and integrity ..

..for the prayer for the 10 who likely struggled with the multiple issues involved ..

..for the prayers of the 216th GA for courage in the face of fear.

Jim Tennyson

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank you Doug and the whole Society for your good works. I am of course sorry to hear about Lisa. But equally pleased for her courage to standup against her (presumably) Presbyterian upbringing.

I'm on the "Committee for Inclusion" here in Atlanta's Presbytery. Our purpose is to provide information and guidance to church's to improve pastoral care to glbd folks. Some church's in the presbytery have signed a petition to have our group disbanded for "advocating a homosexual lifestyle" and not promoting "transformational ministries."

Some day Christ's people will learn to love and accept as Christ did.

Some day.

Thanks again!

Paul Winer

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am deeply saddened that our beloved branch of Christ's body still is so unforgiving. What does it mean to follow Christ??

I appreciate the Witherspoon society and all it stands for. Truly many of us are "not of this world" of the PC(USA), and all we can to is to protest such a denial and keep working for justice for ALL!

Peace and persistence!

Edith Downing

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What can I say (at this late date, after so many wise, true things have been said) - except thank you, Witherspoon, for once again trying to hold to hold the church's feet to the fire.

Anne Barstow

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you have thoughts to add?
Critical ones are fine, too!
Just send a note
and we'll post it here.