Responding to "Keklamenos'" invitation to dialogue among Presbyterians, elder Gordon Shull of Wooster, Ohio, asks whether we can "accept our honest differences and go about the business - together - of proclaiming the Kingdom?"   [11-10-04]

Keklamenos has done us all a favor by reminding us that any position the General Assembly takes on ordination will cause great pain to many. That is something that I, whose understanding of scripture and nature lead me to uphold ordination without regard to sexual orientation, and the father of a gay minister, must take seriously.

But I continue to be troubled by what seems to me to be an absolutist, exclusivist, less than Christian certainty in the Keklamenos position. I hate to use fighting words like these, so let me put the question to Keklamenos more thoughtfully: As a person who understands that I know only in part, and understand only in part, I honor your right to read scripture differently than I do. I honor your right to urge your local church and presbytery to apply your understanding. Why can't you, understanding that you know and understand only in part, grant to me the same right?

The reason, I understand, is that you honestly believe that Scripture denies me that right. But I must ask: is it not a fact that a great many sincere Presbyterians (not just members of other denominations) honestly disagree with you? And if we who disagree with you are willing nevertheless to live in community with you, and with the local churches and presbyteries agreeing you, is it not your duty, as a Presbyterian Christian who understands only in part, to allow us to practice our faith in the local churches and presbyteries that agree with us? Why can't we accept our honest differences and go about the business - together - of proclaiming the Kingdom?

Straining for empathy with those who find such acceptance so painful, perhaps I need to ask myself, "What doctrines or practices would I find so abhorrent that I would use the Book of Order to bar them?" I shrink from any effort to reduce faith to creeds and rules, but out of empathy for Keklamenos I am going to think about it nonetheless.

-Gordon Shull (elder, Wooster, Ohio)

[10-15-04]

On July 17 we received a note from someone who requested anonymity as he/she invited us, as representing the progressive side of the Presbyterian Church, to join in "a genuine dialogue."

The writer, taking the name Keklamenos, stated clear affirmations of the grace of God and the authority of Scripture.

The note stimulated considerable conversation, and we have just received a note from Witherspoon member Sue Nichols Spencer, who picks up some of the threads of that discussion once again.

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Dear Keklamenos,

I appreciate your kind spirit and sincerity. You should know that I write as a fellow Presbyterian and as the parent of a gay person.

I highly recommend that you read Stephen G. Ray's book, Do No Harm. This partial sentence encapsulates the author's theme: " ... wrong headed sin-talk deployed in the public square has destructive effects on the lives of flesh and blood humans."

Ray illustrates how two brilliant Protestant theological "heroes" contributed to colossal, devastating harm done by the societies in which they resided. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, to the Holocaust in Germany and Reinhold Niebuhr, to American racism toward African-Americans.

The two men never intended or imagined that such would be the case. They did not take due cognizance of the festering societies beyond their cloistered theological study rooms. Thus, they did not dream that their words would slip out into a "public square" where they could be aligned so snugly with words coming from sinister sources with sinister motives that they could help to sanction unbelievable evil.

Now, since what is said by those in our denomination and in a Witherspoon publication fall somewhat into a category of utterances "deployed in public square," it seems crucial to examine our stances. Could a "high view of Scripture" aimed merely at keeping a ban on the ordination of homosexuals in our denomination become part and parcel of a justification for much broader harm in our society?

In looking at this question, Jesus as the Way, the Truth and the Life can be a model for us. Unlike Bonhoeffer and Niebuhr, Jesus did not live in a theological or doctrinal cocoon. He walked the streets and byways observing people and how they were treated. Let us, therefore, take a Jesus-like tour of our society and see some of what is going on:

In the light of this survey, by no means an exhaustive one, you may wish to consider what relative rankings you want to give to two of your convictions: your "high view of Scripture" and your belief that "all life is sacred to God." For it is one thing to find that by ones sin--talk gay candidates are kept out of Presbyterian pulpits. But it is quite another thing to discover that one is unwittingly abetting abuses and atrocities that clearly negate "the sacredness of life"!

Let me close with quotations from an article written by Princeton Professor George Hunsinger in the November 26, 2001 issue of The Presbyterian Outlook:

The Church has a special vocation to combat all negative stereotyping of vulnerable social groups, because such stereotyping is essentially murderous.

The Church has a long way to go in repenting of its complicity in such stereotyping. Standing with the historic victims of false witness, not least with homosexuals, and speaking out against their abuse, is a minimal social obligation that the church has yet to meet with full seriousness.

It is too late for Bonhoeffer and Niebuhr. It is not too late, yet, for the rest of us!


Sue Nichols Spencer
Lakeland, FL

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Keklamenos continues the conversation about how we might live together as Presbyterians of differing views

Responding to Sue Nichols Spencer, he affirms some points of agreement, and concludes with the question: "How do we present a witness of Christ's love for everyone, and at the same time preach the repentance and forgiveness of sins?"

Here is a reply to Sue Nichols Spencer.

Thank you or your words, and your honesty. I am glad to be having this discussion and dialogue.

Sue, I have not read "Do No Harm." I'll put it on my not so short list of books to read, though. Without having read it, I cannot comment on what it says about Bonhoeffer and Niebuhr.

A few points where I believe we agree.

· The basic premise that you describe -- we should all be careful in how we discuss sin, lest our words be used for evil -- makes good sense.

· The church catholic, and our denomination as one small part of it, is called to combat all negative stereotyping of vulnerable social groups.

· I hope we both agree with the 190th General Assembly, which said that we should treat homosexuals "with the profound respect and pastoral tenderness due all people of God. There can be no place within the Christian faith for the response to homosexual persons of mingled contempt, hatred, and fear that is called homophobia." Further, "[h]omosexual persons are encompassed by the searching love of Christ." Violence against homosexuals is wrong, and we should send that message out clearly

You raise the excellent and inarguable point that our society has been very cruel towards homosexuals, and that certain people have inflicted violence, to the point of death, to homosexuals.

If, in discussing homosexuality, I am doing something that encourages violence towards homosexuals, tell me. I will apologize, repent and refrain from it, and will encourage others from doing the same.

I, for one, am entirely willing to explore new and better ways to express Christ's love to others in our society. I myself am a sinner, saved by grace. My personal experience of the gospel and my observations of others who have been touched by it, is that no one experiences the love of Jesus Christ unchanged. At the same time, we are called to preach repentance and forgiveness of sins in Jesus' name to all nations.

So, we are left with a tension -- how do we present a witness of Christ's love for everyone, and at the same time preach the repentance and forgiveness of sins? I am more than willing to work with others to find a better way.

Blessings,

Keklamenos

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